Welcome to In Three Poems. I'm David J. Bauman. Our guest poet today is Grant Clouser. He's the author of six books of poetry, including Muddy Dragon on the Road to Heaven, Reckless Constellations, and The Magician's Handbook. His poems have appeared in the American Poetry Review, Kenyon Review, Greensboro Review, and Tar River Poetry. He teaches in Rosemont College's MFA program and works for the New York Times. Our first two poems today are from Grant's book Temporary Shelters.

published by Cornerstone Press in 2025. And Grant will also share with us a poem by Tom Hennen. Here's my conversation with Grant from back in September.

David J Bauman (00:39)
Grant, thanks for joining us in conversation in three poems.

Grant Clauser (00:43)
Thank you, David.

David J Bauman (00:44)
So the way this works, we hear two poems by you and one by another poet and it could be a poem that inspired you or maybe that has a connection to your work in some way or that fits with one of the poems that we're reading. We can talk about that when the time comes. But first, one of the cool things about this is I get to read the first poem.

So the first poem is from your new book and so is the poem that you'll read and we'll talk about that in a second but it's called Fireline Trail.

This trail, marked in yellow blazes for the maples and lost, where lookouts once kept eyes awake for smoke and fire, begins in white pines, the edges needle soft and quiet, then blends into proud old chestnut oaks, standing straight a hundred feet in a kind of wisdom. At the top, where paper birch lean toward the gorge, unwrapping in

the almost noonness of the sun. A meadow filled with blueberry bushes stretches until the mountain bends to the river.

I pick my fill of ripe ones, miles from highway traffic and the river now dying from mine acid. Here, so much free sweetness within easy reach. The world must be playing a trick. Maybe it's not that life is hard, just our expectations too high. Eyes bigger than your stomach, my mother used to warn. I'll leave most of the berries here for birds.

Begin the switch back down to the car, back through those oaks, the dark quiet of pines, the day's haze that leads toward home, the taste of blueberries, the whole marvelous mountain still on my lips.

Grant Clauser (02:41)
I loved your reading of it. You really have that television announcer voice, segue from the serious news into, and for today's quiet moment.

David J Bauman (02:52)
Maybe I'll start a podcast or something like that. That's an idea. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I do have like a dozen years of radio. Some of that in, well, I don't know, maybe some of that in some questionable quality radio, but still. Yeah, I always loved doing that. And I think the whole...

Grant Clauser (02:54)
That was beautiful. Thank you.

David J Bauman (03:12)
art of poetry thing, hearing it out loud and then I'm challenged when I think of poets like Raymond Luczak who is deaf, but he does these wonderful readings in sign language there's some way in which poetry, the language comes off the page and interacts in your brain a little differently. And I just, I love that. So thanks for letting me read that one.

It's one of many that I was struck by. I mentioned that you and I both grew up in Pennsylvania. I mentioned that in our conversation before we started recording, I guess. was in a family of hunters, but I was the only one who really didn't want to hunt and eventually ended up with binoculars going out. I wasn't any good at fishing.

So yeah, you kind of do what you can do. I'm pretty good at looking through binoculars.

Grant Clauser (03:59)
Yeah, I like,

I tell people I'm still a recovering Boy Scout from, you know, all the grew up, you know, camping and fishing and, and, and exploring around the, the, the corn fields and small woods, you know, in the sort of the suburban area of Northampton County, where I grew up.

David J Bauman (04:03)
You

Okay, yeah, I was Clinton County where everything north of the town of Lock Haven was all pretty much woodland and maybe a few small villages like Farransville, but that's not exactly a population of what, 40 people at most up there. More deer than people. And maybe it's a little bit like that now in Snyder County, 39,000 people, lots of farmland, and out along the mountain.

Shade Mountain, is kind of come to be one of my favorite places to get out into the woods here and go out and watch hawks during migration like I've been doing recently. But the thing I love about your imagery, Grant, I mean, it's so detailed that even if the person reading it was not a country boy like you or I, even if they were grew up in the city, I just think it's so visual and so descriptive.

that it would take them there anyway and not just visually but the auditory aspects of the imagery. You start off in these soft pines the trail kind of littered with pine needles and even if you've never experienced that, which you should if you haven't, it's an amazing thing to hear how quiet a pine forest is and how quiet your footsteps are where those pine needles are.

And you get to the point where you've moved away from the noise of the traffic and even the noise of the river.

like basically what three habitats you get to before you even get to where the blueberry habitat is. And so it's no wonder birds show up in your poems at least as often as they do in mine.

Grant Clauser (05:35)
Yes.

I'm not a good birder. In fact, I have a poem in here where I sort of make fun of it called Life List, where I make up a lot of bird names just for fun. But I do try hard. you know, I'm armed with the Merlin app like everybody else in the woods these days and try to learn what I'm, you know, try to learn the names of the things I'm experiencing. But also I just, I love the

David J Bauman (05:49)
Yes.

Grant Clauser (06:07)
the language of natural things. that's one of the reasons like you see plants and birds and things like that show up in my poems. I love the words so much and sometimes combining them and making something else, making a new word out of two other words and ⁓ the place names that you find. Some of them are real, some of them are not. I mean, this one, Fireline Trail is a real place. It's a

David J Bauman (06:22)
Mm-hmm.

Grant Clauser (06:30)
It's a real trail in Hickory Run State Park in Carbon County that I've been to many times. And it does, as you start low, you know, at the sort of at the foot of the mountain hill, whatever, by the parking area, you transition through different little ecosystems and different sort of types of forest until you get to the top ridge where it's another

new environment and those experiences kind of change you as you're physically moving through them.

David J Bauman (07:00)
And I think that's, that's something that is important because during COVID, for instance, I think that's when a lot of people started, that's when Merlin really started being used like crazy. I think there were other things at the beginning of the COVID lockdowns, like BirdNet I was using, because for years I could never learn the bird

sounds, different songs. A friend of mine loaned me this is how old I am, loaned me a cassette and I was trying to listen through and after a while Buzzeet Buzzeet and Bee Buzz Buzz sounded just the same because just having somebody monotone saying Yellow Winged Warbler and then it just it wasn't sticking. I needed to see the bird, I needed to hear it and with some of those apps you you can record the thing and then you can play it back and like is that really what I heard? And did I just hear Yellow Warbler?

And I think it was just so good for a lot of people finding a center. think somewhere along the line we forgot that we're actually natural creatures. we...

learn about, you know, man against nature in the Jack London books or something in high school, when really maybe the whole problem with that is that that we are nature, we're part of nature, you know, and that division becomes a problem. And so when you're writing poems that have a lot to do with nature, and I'm glad eco poetry has kind of become a genre now, it's not just avoiding politics, it's not avoiding the tough things, it's going deep, you know.

Grant Clauser (08:26)
Well, I think in life, with things like the Merlin app or the field guides that I walk around with, when you know the name of the things around you, it's another level of connection you have. The first moment that I opened up that app and I'm listening to the things going on around me and I realize, there's a Scarlet Tanager here, somewhere, there's a Scarlet Tanager.

And even though I never saw it, it was just exciting to be in the vicinity of that thing. And in poems, when you name things, you're also forming relationships with it on the page. And as the reader is experiencing that they're forming a relationship. So it's this sort of three-way bond that's happening with you, or at least I hope so.

David J Bauman (08:58)
Mmm.

Yeah,

yeah, I like that. I think that works really well. And Fireline, I think even city folk have some idea of what a fire line is. You know, when you...

Grant Clauser (09:15)
Yeah, in this case,

was, I think at one point there was a fire tower and, you know, they don't use these kinds of things for fire observation anymore because, you know, we have satellites. But all over the Pennsylvania wilderness, are, there are fire towers or there were trails that were monitored by Rangers to look for smoke. And especially in, well, since most of the state of Pennsylvania was clear cut several times.

⁓ wildfires were rampant. In fact, the area around Hickory Run burnt to the ground severely and then there were floods and things. of course, forestry has built this back so we have a great wilderness again. But yeah, fires were real serious thing back in the day. that's why you have a not, there's probably, there are probably multiple trails across the state called Fire Line Trail or Fire Tower Trail or

or something like that, Firewatch Trail. But that's what this one originally was at one point.

David J Bauman (10:06)
every

I think I swear every county in Pennsylvania has a fishing creek. Pretty much. It's everywhere. But yeah, this poem too was, this is in your new book. So tell us about your new book.

Grant Clauser (10:13)
yeah.

Well, it's called Temporary Shelters and You mentioned COVID earlier and most of this book was, my prior book came out in 2020 and this book was written in the span after that. So a lot of it was...

was written during COVID. It's not really overt in there. There are a couple of direct references, but I don't bang people over the head with it. But the concept of shelter is very evident. And I think it's evident in this particular poem because that experience going into woods becomes a kind of shelter, in this case an emotional shelter, which really starts to kick in around the line.

Maybe it's not that life is hard, just our expectations too high. And you see the speaker is kind of going through something at that moment, looking for a type of solitude or escape.

David J Bauman (11:10)
in fact in my notes.

It's that line ⁓ that really was hard for me when I read it. And that's part of why I wanted to read it out loud because that's difficult. I mean, you soften it a bit by saying the bit about mom, you your eyes bigger than your stomach. But the idea that, the world is messed up. It is screwed up. It is a bad world. But, you know, maybe you're just expecting too much.

from this instance, and it's not.

You don't say it in a condescending way at all. It's just like, okay, just bring it down a notch a little bit. And I think, I think for somebody maybe like me who can get a little more anxious than you'd like to, I'd like to admit. Yeah. Yeah. But that, that idea of like, maybe, maybe I could just kind of relax. that's, that's the whole thing with the birds for me, ⁓ because ⁓ they don't expect anything from me.

Grant Clauser (11:53)
Hard not to.

David J Bauman (12:04)
when I go out there. I don't have any deadlines for them. I mean, granted, I might...

with eBird these days, part of the way they get people to use it and to log their sightings of birds is they make it sort of competitive and gamify it. And we'll see there's this competition here in this county, like who's got, Jesse has the highest number of species in the county and I'm number two and now I'm number two for all time after being here just for two years. no, but Andy, he's coming up. Yeah, you know what mean?

Grant Clauser (12:31)
⁓ way to ruin birding.

David J Bauman (12:35)
But if we get away from all that, I'm just going out there at my best times and just enjoying what comes to me and what's out there and realizing, hey, I'm part of this. We all come from the same stardust. I need more of this in my life. And whether that's in a city park or watching the pigeons downtown.

when I'm at a hotel somewhere traveling, there are ways to ground yourself back into the world that we're all part of.

Grant Clauser (13:01)
And that's kind of the concept that keeps coming back throughout the Temporary Shelters There are these shelters, real or emotional, spiritual, whatever, that are available to you and you can get to them in different ways. ⁓ And the temporary aspect could either be a good thing or a bad thing, depends on your perspective, meaning like, you're out birding, but you got to go home.

David J Bauman (13:19)
Yeah.

Grant Clauser (13:27)
But when you're home, it's still out there available to you.

David J Bauman (13:30)
Yeah, yeah. And since we've been talking about birds, the poem that you chose to read of yours is called Talking with Birds. And also, conveniently enough, on the page right next to, on the flip side of the page from the one I just read. And so I'm going to let you read that to us.

Grant Clauser (13:46)
All right, Talking with Birds. Also coincidentally, this was written at Hickory Run again, maybe the same camping trip, think, maybe the same camping trip. So within a couple of days of each other, it whistles, I whistle back, dactyl, dactyl, spondy, followed by a third or fourth bird hidden in the forest miraculous meter.

David J Bauman (13:54)
Hmm.

Grant Clauser (14:13)
And I am almost sure this choir sitting behind my tent is not random. Pole-straight hemlocks and red maples hold back the sun, tower like saints of memory. I'm alone among old bark, tattooed with lichens, so at ease with what the world wants of them, they die standing up.

As the trunks reach skyward, their lower branches weaken each year and fall off. Useless in the dim below the canopy, like the duff plumage of young birds as they learn to fly. Some of those birds are telling me about the uses of wind. How when they catch it right, it can carry them anywhere. Maybe across the river gorge, where more birds are turning every hour into music.

reaching for the wind, asking it to hold them.

David J Bauman (15:16)
oh That line, ⁓ again, a sobering moment, even if I can't explain to you why, and maybe some of it I can, but that whole thing that this choir is not a random thing.

not because they're singing for you necessarily, when you realize it's not random, maybe that's where you're...

actually in the moment. You're actually there, not just listening to something else that's happening. You're part of what's happening.

Grant Clauser (15:51)
I mean, haven't you been on a ridge watching hawks and it feels like they're performing for you. It feels like you're the only person there experiencing this. I mean, any tourist anywhere in the world, snapping a picture of something cool has that, this is my personal moment. And honestly, it's that trick that the mind does to us, which I think is so necessary. It's a sort of cleansing or relief just to have that, that

David J Bauman (15:57)
yeah.

Yeah.

Grant Clauser (16:18)
that moment where you feel like you and the world are communicating.

David J Bauman (16:23)
Yeah, I think the first time hearing a raven fly in front of me and I remember looking at it thinking, I'm pretty sure that's a raven, not a crow. They make a different kind of call, they do different weird stuff and they do clicking and all of sudden it started doing this metallic clicking.

and it was way up in the Northwoods, not quite to the Black Forest Trail of Pennsylvania, but somewhere up there in the woods and I'm at this lookout that I hiked maybe a mile or so out to by myself and it's echoing in the valley right above Pine Creek as a matter of and it's

just this magic moment where, wow, I'm the only human hearing this. I mean, maybe not. There could have been a hunter further down the valley or something, but it was a private moment. But also, I don't know, just also help a grounding moment.

Grant Clauser (17:10)
Yeah, I think at least for myself, it's important to go out into the woods alone as much as possible. I go camping a couple of times a year by myself and most weekends I'm out hiking alone because I just think I'm looking for those sort of one-on-one moments with a waterfall or an oak tree or a deer.

David J Bauman (17:31)
Yeah.

And do you have people in your life telling you, you shouldn't be out there alone? And say, but that's the whole point. Well, not that always. There is a.

Grant Clauser (17:35)
I do sometimes.

⁓ people at work are like,

you're gonna be a week by yourself? Who you talk to? They're like, the campfire. That's the point.

David J Bauman (17:46)
Yeah, yeah. And it's a good way

to really get comfortable with your own company, I suppose, There's a there's a Mary Oliver poem. Maybe I can put a link to it in the podcast comments or something later if I can think of it. But I know there's a line, I think it's the ending line where she talks about this and she said something about if I if I invite you to the woods with me, I must love you very much.

Grant Clauser (18:12)
yes, I love that.

David J Bauman (18:12)
because

she guards those those quiet moments. So temporary shelters is the latest book both of these poems from that and now you chose a poem from Tom Hennen called from a country overlooked

Grant Clauser (18:16)
You must be a person who doesn't talk too much.

David J Bauman (18:34)
Tell me, tell us why you chose that poem to read and like how it's all connected maybe to this or how you see it connected.

Grant Clauser (18:40)
Well, ⁓

I don't know, Hennen I think a friend of mine, Brian Beatty, recommended it to me years ago. And I have his book, Darkness Sticks to Everywhere. He's also a nature guy. In fact, I think he works in ecology in Minnesota. And there's just a quiet...

David J Bauman (18:55)
Mm-hmm.

Grant Clauser (19:02)
questioning and peace with things, sort of line that flows through a lot of his poems. You know, not ignoring the rest of the world, acknowledging that it's still there, but also acknowledging that there are other things worth paying attention to. most of all, it's the ability to marvel at those things and

be able to find wonder and appreciate wonder even in small things like in this and in frogs and ditches.

I really love that about his work.

So do you me to read that now?

David J Bauman (19:35)
Yes, absolutely, I would love to hear it.

Grant Clauser (19:37)
Okay. From a country over...

There are no creatures you cannot love. A frog calling at God from the moon-filled ditch as you stand on the country road in the June night. The sound is enough to make the stars weep with happiness. In the morning, the landscape green is lifted off the ground by the scent of grass. The day is carried across its hours

without any effort by the shining insects that are living their secret lives. The space between the prairie horizons makes us ache with its beauty. Cottonwood leaves click in an ancient tongue to the farthest cold dark in the universe. The cottonwood also talks to you of breeze and speckled sunlight. You are at home in these great

empty places along with red-winged blackbirds and sloughs You are comfortable in this spot so full of grace and being that it sparkles like jewels spilled on water.

David J Bauman (20:59)
I think there's an echo of that whole marvelous mountain still on my lips.

there at the end of that. could definitely see, I mean, part of my whole wanting to do a poetry podcast in this way was because I really wanted to explore the way poems talk to each other and the way poets sometimes talk to each other without us even realizing that we're doing it maybe. ⁓ But we're so influenced by things that we've read that resonate with us

And I thought it would be kind of fun to explore that. And I didn't, when we went into this, I don't know why, the way those two lines fall in both of those poems, I didn't see that similarity until just now as you were reading it.

Grant Clauser (21:44)
Well, I loved his moment. The cottonwood also talks to you of breeze and speckled sunlight. And that made me think of just the beginning that I was talking with birds. It whistles, I whistle back, like just communicating with things out there and just feeling like they're accepting you.

David J Bauman (21:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, and the whole...

The whole thing I said about birds before, where they're not expecting anything of me, that whole part of the day carried across its hours without any effort by the shining insects that are living their secret lives. It's like that with the birds too. ⁓ They're not counting the hours, let alone, you know, moving the hours or trying to influence time maybe the way we might be. They're just living in it.

I know ⁓ people say, what is it that you, what's the quote a friend of mine said? You and your birds. We don't talk as much. But it's just that whole being overlooked. There's this beautiful part of the world. even if it's a pigeon on the window.

or a goldfinch outside, there's this whole thing that gets overlooked.

There's all these different birds all around and I can't imagine how like growing up I knew there were robins, knew there were crows, I knew there were different birds but like you said when you're able to suddenly like put a name to what bird is singing and the chorus becomes something other than just a chorus it's like when you're listening to music and you start to be able to pick out some things. Ooh listen to that oboe.

hear what that flute is doing or the harmony that the singers are doing. You start becoming part of what's happening instead of living in your to-do list and your anxieties and worries. It's a very helpful thing to do and I suppose I should do a whole episode on this that doesn't involve birds. Because there are probably other ways. That's for someone else. That's for someone else to carry that cross. It's not mine.

Grant Clauser (23:33)
You couldn't do it. You wouldn't last.

But I

think that being sort of an enthusiast about something. mean, imagine, you know, I mean, the difference in pleasure you get recognize, you know, looking at a bird feeder full of brownish gray birds and going, there's a bunch of brownish gray birds. But then the different thrill you get going, knowing what kind of sparrow that is, knowing that's a cowbird, knowing that's this and that.

David J Bauman (23:46)
Yeah.

Grant Clauser (24:05)
just knowing and understanding it becomes itself a different kind of pleasure. And I think that

That's why people become obsessive about things because they're looking for those small nuggets of pleasure in their life. I mean, with poetry, you you get, you start understanding how a sonnet works, how metaphors work. And the more you know about these things, the more pleasure you get out of experiencing them and the overall higher pleasure quotient you have in your life.

David J Bauman (24:39)
There's this kid somewhere in the UK I think

who his big excitement thing that he notices everything about is different trains. And at the beginning of an Instagram video, he's just beaming with joy. And I say kid, but he's like probably in his twenties, I'm sure. And he's like, okay, the 529 is coming in from Yorkshire and this one is built in 1922. And he's just, I don't know anything about trains, but I'm excited for him.

Grant Clauser (25:09)
Well, I yeah, I'm good for him, too. I for a while, I just I tried to learn more about rocks. So I've got a bunch of rock books. My theory was that they're easier to catch. You know, you know, you see one, you don't have to sneak up on it. So I thought, fascinating if I could learn more about the rocks that I'm encountering, you know, this is from the such and such era and his volcanic such and such and.

That just didn't go very far.

David J Bauman (25:37)
And I really like that idea of getting in touch with whatever it is that you've set your heart on. The minute.

of the thing, the little details, whether that be poetry or music. ⁓ I know when I talk to Brian, who is my partner, I forget what song he was playing. And I said, well, that's a really interesting key change. And he looked at me and said, hmm, well, OK, I can see why you think that's a key change. it's a modulation. And I don't know the difference.

So ⁓ his knowledge of those things just blows me away

Grant Clauser (26:11)
Yeah.

David J Bauman (26:11)
So what else do you want people to know

now your website, Uniamic, is that still it?

Grant Clauser (26:18)
Yeah, Uniambic

I did that as a joke, ⁓ but also grantclauser.com works will go to the same place because.

David J Bauman (26:22)
you

Okay, good. was

gonna ask if they put in grandclauser.com, did they get there?

Grant Clauser (26:30)
Yes, but because a

lot of some people read an iambic and try to pronounce it wrong or pronounce it wrong and like what or think that the i is an l and yeah it was was it was a joke that made me laugh for five minutes but no one else.

David J Bauman (26:38)
You

You're really...

and they think this guy's really into free verse. Not magical stuff at all.

Grant Clauser (26:48)
You

even though I teach a class in form.

David J Bauman (26:52)
yeah, so tell us about your teaching. What else do you do? You're teaching in an MFA program right now.

Grant Clauser (26:57)
Yeah, at Rosemont now, but we'll probably be looking for something else because I think that program is being phased out since ⁓ the acquisition by another college. teaching is something I do on the side for fun. I have a day job. I just love the opportunity to get in front of a

David J Bauman (27:07)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Grant Clauser (27:19)
class for three hours once a week and just talk about something I really love. So that's why I do that.

David J Bauman (27:24)
So now you've got this book that has just come out. Are you starting on the next thing or are you doing some more camping in the meantime? Are we clearing your brain? are you?

Grant Clauser (27:32)
Well, I am. Yeah,

my fall trip is coming up in November. A couple of times a year I take these trips by myself. They're, you know, camping, hiking trips, but I also bring a bunch of notebooks and a bunch of books and come home with half a dozen or so poems. And some of them I even keep. So, yeah. Yeah. So I especially like the colder weather trips because

David J Bauman (27:51)
Fabulous.

Yeah.

Grant Clauser (27:59)
Just that there's a, I don't know, a cool feeling about lighting a campfire that's actually useful rather than just decorative.

David J Bauman (28:06)
Mm-hmm.

And plus hiking through mosquitoes and the humidity of summer is just not fun. I didn't notice it, think, as much when I was young and skinny when I first started backpacking. But summer's when I had off. So, there we have the dog. I think podcasts and such are allowed to have dogs these days. It's okay, sweetheart. We're almost done.

Grant Clauser (28:13)
Yeah, definitely less buggy.

Everywhere is allowed to have dogs.

David J Bauman (28:29)
Yeah, that's one of the best things maybe that came out of lockdowns is having animals on screen with us. Grant, thank you so much for joining us In Three Poems and sharing your work and work that's meaningful to you. What an honor to read with you again. That's something I didn't mention. You and I read together at our alma mater quite a few years back. It seems like yesterday, but nice to read with you again.

Grant Clauser (28:57)
Yeah, Bloomsburg, which is now called whatever it's called now.

David J Bauman (28:57)
and I hope we get to do it again in the future. Yeah, Bloomsburg University.

Speaking of those colleges being acquired and what's the word, merged, Commonwealth University of Pennsylvania at Bloomsburg, I am not sure how they say it now.

Grant Clauser (29:05)
Mm-hmm.

Commonwealth, that's what they call it now, Commonwealth University.

You know?

Something complicated like that.

David J Bauman (29:18)
Well, thank you. Anything else you want us to know about your work before we go?

Grant Clauser (29:22)
No, I mean, if you if you happen to look on blue sky, I'll be there. And my daughter or boyfriend who are filmmakers ⁓ made a series of By the time this gets published, there will be two of those videos from the poems available and another one coming out. I don't know when this is coming out. There's another one coming out in October. So a total of three of poems from and.

David J Bauman (29:30)
Mm.

Grant Clauser (29:47)
Danica and Alex are so good at what they do, so I think people will like them.

David J Bauman (29:51)
Thank you so much Grant and we'll talk to you again soon. Bye bye.

Grant Clauser (29:55)
Thank you. Bye bye.

David (29:58)
The poem from a country overlooked by Tom Hennan was presented as published in his book, Darkness Sticks to Everything from Copper Canyon Press in 2013 and was used with their permission. Thank you so much for all the encouragement and support of the podcast. I've heard so many enthusiastic comments and

and such great feedback. just can't tell you how much it means to me. There will be plenty more poetry conversations ahead this season. And just some of the guests include Jose Hernandez Diaz, Marjorie Maddox, Monica Prince, Philip F. Clark, Katie Manning, and many more. So please follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Blue Sky, and listen on your favorite podcast app or at inthreepoems.com or you can even tune in to the inthreepoems channel on YouTube.

Thank you so much.