David J Bauman (00:00)
Welcome to In Three Poems, where we read three poems with a different guest poet each episode. And the third poem is always a work by another poet chosen by our guest. Today, our guest is Sadiq Dzukogi. He's a Nigerian poet and assistant professor of English at Mississippi State University. He's the author of Your Crib, My Qibla from Nebraska Press in 2021. That was the winner of the Derek Walcott Prize for Poetry and the Julie Suk Award.

and was shortlisted for the Nigeria Prize for Literature. His poems have appeared in Poetry Magazine, Kenyon Review, Prairie Schooner, Narrative Magazine, Plowshares, Guernica, Poetry London, Best American Experimental Writing Anthology, and the Cincinnati Review. He's received fellowships from the Nebraska Arts Council, Mississippi Arts Commission, and Cave Canem.

David J Bauman (00:55)
I'm here with Saddiq Dzukogi and I think this is the first time we've actually spoken and been able to see each other's faces while we've talked. So it's delightful to do that. Welcome to In Three Poems, Saddiq

Saddiq Dzukogi (01:08)
Well,

thank you so much, David, and thank you for publishing a poem of mine all those years ago.

David J Bauman (01:15)
my gosh,

I am just honored you even remembered that. ⁓ The first time that I read any of your poetry I was working at a branch library for the Osterhout Free Library and they used to do a smaller literary magazine that was mostly local people and the director of the library and of the system there.

Saddiq Dzukogi (01:17)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

David J Bauman (01:35)
just handed me an old copy of a, and said, hey, any interest in bringing this back to life since I know you write poetry? And I'm like, really? And he goes, yeah, I mean, you're out there at the branch. You need some extra things to do. You can only stock so many shelves. I said, wait, so I can work on poetry as part of my job? He said, well, yeah. He said, as long as you do your library stuff, too. It was a great opportunity. And I said to him, we talked. said, does it have to be just local like it was?

Saddiq Dzukogi (01:44)
You

David J Bauman (02:02)
Or can we also be part local and part global?

Because American Library Association has this thing that I love the way they phrase it. They talk about libraries being both mirrors and windows because people like to see themselves represented. So whether that's a community in the collection that we have there. ⁓

Saddiq Dzukogi (02:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David J Bauman (02:23)
but we're also windows onto the rest of the world, you haven't gotten a chance to experience. And so I pitched that whole thing and the friends group paid for the printing. And I think I initially actually paid for the website fees and then I never ended up transferring that to anybody else. So I paid for that for quite a while. But what was cool is Duotrope found us through the website and sent me a message and said, hey, we're putting you up there on our website for authors.

Saddiq Dzukogi (02:25)
Yeah, yeah, something else, yeah.

wow.

Mm-hmm.

David J Bauman (02:50)
We picked your latest cover. Does this look all right? I'm like, holy cow. This is great And then we just had people submitting from all over and that's how the first thing I read of yours it was a for our winter issue in 2017 And I'll make sure you still get a copy I guess at that time at that time we sent it to Nigeria and apparently it never made it to you

Saddiq Dzukogi (02:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you know like yeah,

I yeah there was a time I just stopped submitting to print journals because like very difficult to just Get those copies like in Nigeria, so yeah

David J Bauman (03:22)
Yeah. And it was fun,

though, with that because I was able to do a web version as well as.

Saddiq Dzukogi (03:28)
huh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it was awesome. Really chilled.

I saw it. Yeah, and it's like nine years ago now.

David J Bauman (03:37)
Yeah, and you have had quite a trip since then. You're now teaching in Nebraska and you taught in Mississippi for a while, right?

Saddiq Dzukogi (03:39)
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. I was at Mississippi State for three years from 2022 to 2025. So it's my first year back in Nebraska. It's been eight months already. It's just time flies.

David J Bauman (04:01)
And now you have a book that just came out in December, right? Bakandamiya from the African Poetry Book Series published by University of Nebraska Press. And you're gonna read to us a bit of a section from that in a few moments. One of the cool things about this show is I get to be transported back to my YouTube days I was telling you about when I used to record other people's poems.

Saddiq Dzukogi (04:04)
Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David J Bauman (04:24)
And I get to read the first one, which is kind of fun for me because I find once I've interacted with a piece, you know, or read it out loud, it just takes you to a different level in the thing, helping you wrap your mind around what the author was doing in the piece. And it was just fun. So I chose a poem of yours that was first published in Poetry magazine September of 2021.

Saddiq Dzukogi (04:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

David J Bauman (04:48)
and it's called Ring. Do you want me to just read it and then we'll talk about it? Okay.

Saddiq Dzukogi (04:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

David J Bauman (04:54)
Ring. I took a piece of chalk and drew a circle around my body. the names of my loved ones who are alive until the only space left was under my feet. lost. We are eternal prey to the circle's energy looking to decongest

its body from our own. What I have is the beginning in my hand. It is what I can wield. Rubbing my palms on the ground, the white line of the circle became a mixture of chalk and dirt on my skin. Still, the two worlds stayed separated after my ritual collapsing their boundaries. I unrolled my prayer mat on the melting snow, sat facing a frozen lake,

Imagining the sun probing through the ice, four inches thick. A man idling in the middle, water, ice fishing. I looked on, waiting for his hook to find a trout. What if this is how death finds us? By luring us with what we desire.

Saddiq Dzukogi (06:12)
Yeah, not a bad poem.

David J Bauman (06:14)
That's not bad at all. You know, maybe

it should be like on a podcast or somewhere like Poetry Magazine, somewhere worthy of it, I think. talk to me about the setting there. this, was this from an actual experience that you had then? Because that's a big leap from Mississippi to be in a frozen lake.

Saddiq Dzukogi (06:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was in

Nebraska. think it might have been a poem that I wrote during the pandemic, think. Yeah, I think 2020, the winter of 2020. One of my most favorite place of mine.

David J Bauman (06:43)
Okay.

Saddiq Dzukogi (06:55)
At that time and even right now is some place called Holmes Lake. Actually, I just leave five minutes away from Holmes Lake now. So that's yeah, that's exciting. I've been mapping the contours of Holmes Lake with my camera because it's such a thrill. Yeah. So, you know, each time that I wanted to cool off at that time, was like 15 minutes drive from where we were staying.

David J Bauman (07:04)
I love that.

Yeah, I've been seeing some of your photos on Instagram. We were talking about that too.

Saddiq Dzukogi (07:22)
here in Lincoln, Nebraska and you know, I'm very afraid of the snow, but you know, it's just beautiful. You know, I'd love to sit in my car and just be like, look at all of the people who come around, you like to play with the snow, you like the frozen lake too. And I'm always intrigued by, know, like people who...

David J Bauman (07:33)
Hey.

Saddiq Dzukogi (07:43)
would be on the frozen lake, not just being on the frozen lake, which was ridiculous to me, right? I'm like, yeah, but drilling a hole, like an ice fishing in sub-zero temperature. I'm like, my goodness, well, what's wrong with you? it became, I became fascinated with that, not just.

David J Bauman (07:49)
but drilling a hole in the thing.

You

Saddiq Dzukogi (08:04)
the lake, but you know, like always going there and anticipating who's going to come ice fishing. And just, you know, like I thought it was, you know, like ⁓ white adventurousness. But it was also like beautiful, right? Because like it was so you can see that, you know, like there with themselves and the equipment and the, know, like really.

David J Bauman (08:10)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Saddiq Dzukogi (08:29)
I'm well dressed for the weather and just, you know, like the quiet and, know, like the sheer genius of, you know, like drilling a hole into something that's like four inches thick or six inches, you know, depending on how cold it is. And at that particular time, you know, during the pandemic, there's like a lot of death. It's not like there isn't a lot of death right now. You know, we're still.

David J Bauman (08:51)
Of course,

Saddiq Dzukogi (08:52)
surrounded by it, you know, like on the news, you know, like everywhere back in my country. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, yeah, just the distance of that, you know, like I would always sit in my car and it's because, know, it's warm in the car. And, you know, I had.

David J Bauman (08:57)
but we were experiencing it and having to be hidden away from each other at the same time.

I have gone birding from

my car on days that I didn't want to go out and walk. I understand. Roll down the window a little bit, but crank the heater up and see what I can, what birds I can hear outside.

Saddiq Dzukogi (09:19)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so, know, like I was thinking about that, you know, like the way that you put the bait on the hook, because sometimes, you know, I've asked them, you're like, how do you do this? Because I'm like, quite curious about it. Like, you know, you put the bait and you're like, the fish has been lured by that bait. And I was thinking about that, that in terms of time, the passage of time, how, you know, like time.

David J Bauman (09:34)
Mmm.

Mmm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (09:52)
is baiting us with the things that we desire and we spend so much time lusting after those things that we desire. And before you know it, time has passed. And at the end of time, I'm like, well, what's at the end of time if not death? And yeah, I just felt it was such an intriguing...

David J Bauman (10:02)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (10:17)
observation trying to capture my reflection about that observation in a poem and you know like that's how you know like rain came about in fact there was a poem that I would have forgotten about but I remember I wanted to make a submission and you know like you know those last poems

David J Bauman (10:39)
Yeah.

Saddiq Dzukogi (10:40)
not the main poems for the journal, but the one that you're like, I just want this to be four-poem packet. And so when I received the acceptance, I'm like, what poem is this? I had to go back. I'm like, OK. And I had the same reaction that I had after you just read it, which is, yeah, well, yeah, it's not.

David J Bauman (10:47)
Yep.

You wanted what?

I wrote

that, hey, that was, I wrote that, that was pretty good. I do love that feeling when that happens and you're like, I wrote that, yeah. Maybe I should.

Saddiq Dzukogi (11:05)
Yeah, it's not about poem. Yeah, because it wasn't

it wasn't in my consciousness whatsoever. know, like, yeah, I just, know, it didn't even have a title. You know, like it was just like a little thing and I had to put in a title, you know, to submit it. And if it I'm accepted, you know, like.

David J Bauman (11:16)
Ha ha ha!

you

Saddiq Dzukogi (11:31)
I imagine I'd never know, you know, like about it, right? Because, you know.

David J Bauman (11:33)
Well, yeah, that's always I think

do you find that's the case with you that the title is maybe the last thing to come on a regular basis? Or do you come up with a title and write toward it?

Saddiq Dzukogi (11:44)
I suck at titling, know, I suck big time.

David J Bauman (11:49)
Well, I

had an artist friend. He did the art on all three of my chapbooks. The first was a photograph and the second two were paintings. ⁓ Michael McFarland and we were laughing about this because I said, I have no idea what the title of my piece is going to be. Maybe, you know, maybe at the end it comes together, but it sometimes takes a long time and I, you know, long after it's written.

Saddiq Dzukogi (11:56)
Mm-hmm.

Thank

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

David J Bauman (12:09)
But he often imagines in his head both the title and what he wants, kind of an idea of what the image is gonna go, and then he goes for it and sees what happens. And I'm like, whenever I, well, whenever I think so, whenever I try to do that, what I end up with is something completely different from what I first started with under the name of that title.

Saddiq Dzukogi (12:18)
He's a genius.

Yeah.

Yeah, for me, a lot of my writing is sort of anchored on reflection and inquiry. I'm always exploring and trying to discover things. New way of being, new way of seeing. So I'm not really guided by the title. I it's important. I hate to do it, but eventually I get away with it. ⁓

David J Bauman (12:46)
Mm-hmm.

you

Well, you have

people like the Shakespearean sonnets and dear Emily Dickinson who just, they're just numbered. ⁓ Just in order to catalog, right?

Saddiq Dzukogi (12:57)
Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah, I mean, you know, like, yeah, who cares, you know? You know, like who cares? But I mean, the trick

that always works for me, it's like, you know, like after I just go and see what's the most exciting phrase, you know, like what phrase sings, what word, you know, like has a nice ring to it. Yeah, but individual poems, you know, I do not like titling it. In fact, I just wrote a poem two days ago

and they didn't have a title until this, this, ⁓ this morning. ⁓ I w-

David J Bauman (13:31)
Well, that's like

two or three days to the title. That's pretty quick in my book.

Saddiq Dzukogi (13:34)
Yeah, well, you know, like, yeah,

I mean, you know, perhaps. Yeah, because, you know, if it stays longer than that, I move on pretty quickly to like to other things. But I haven't written a lot of poems this year. But, know, like my regular practice is like, you know, four, four, three poems a week. ⁓ And not all of it survive, of course, but, you know, I'm like always

David J Bauman (13:55)
nice.

Saddiq Dzukogi (13:59)
practicing, I'm like always trying to exercise those muscles. And so if it doesn't have a title, know, like by day two, you know, like I moved to something else because I do not want to be imprisoned by, you know, like a poem. Yeah, list.

David J Bauman (14:15)
I love that because

it's too easy. It's too easy to get obsessive and imprisoned by the piece that you're writing. I think it is for me anyway. I admire the sense of freedom to leap onto the next thing and.

Saddiq Dzukogi (14:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

because, you know, it has to be the whole process, you know, it's it's it's rigorous, but it's also play, you know, like I'm doing it because I enjoy it and I want to have fun. And so, yeah, I try not to get caught, you know, in the throes of, you know, anxiety because I'm like, yeah, you know, it's no big deal. Nobody's going to judge me based on one poem, hopefully.

David J Bauman (14:35)
Right.

I was going to talk to you about that one that I read. Where was that? No, I'm kidding. I'm not going to judge you.

Saddiq Dzukogi (14:56)
Yeah, you know, like

that's what I said, you know, and I'm going to try and be kind to myself and not judge based off a single poem, it's a journey, you know, like every poem, every failed poem, you know, like it's step, you know, in that longer journey. And so, you know, I move through draft if it's not walking, you know, I got that move to the next thing.

David J Bauman (15:15)
I love that outlook.

Saddiq Dzukogi (15:23)
pretty quickly and then maybe days where I do not have anything to say I might open up an old file and try to say it better.

David J Bauman (15:34)
sometimes when I'm not in writing mode as much as I want to be, I will pull up, like you said, you know, what do I have in my notes and see if anything jumps out and says it wants to be, hey, you forgot about me. I want you to I want to do this. Let's let's go. Hey, you forgot you left me here on this notebook.

Saddiq Dzukogi (15:43)
Mm-hmm.

Like, hey snob.

that's good practice, you know, like, because it's vibe, right? You're like, I'm in the mood to create, so I'm going to create. I'm in the mood to edit. I'm going to edit. I'm in the mood to be generous. I'm going to try and share this work, you know, like with the rest of the world. Yeah.

David J Bauman (16:00)
At least that way I.

Yeah.

that's yeah, that's that's a neat way to look at it. I think that kind of thing keeps me from maybe maybe that's my way of not getting imprisoned, you know, of not feeling stuck. If I OK, it's a way of hacking into that works for my brain, of hacking into making sure I'm I'm doing the thing I love because it's like I love birding. But if I decide to stay under the covers.

Saddiq Dzukogi (16:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

you

David J Bauman (16:35)
And I don't want to go out to see the birds. So I noticed.

Saddiq Dzukogi (16:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, and no bird is singing from the tree. And sometimes,

all you need to do is just go out there and get some ice cream or something like that.

David J Bauman (16:48)
There you

go. There you go. And there's birds everywhere and poems are the same way. And they'll find you. I like it. There you go. Is that copyrighted, that title? I won't be able to write. No, like I said, whenever I try to write to a title, never

Saddiq Dzukogi (16:52)
Yeah, palms are birds, yeah.

Now, you know, everybody can have it. Now, you know, like take it, you know, like it's not mine, you know, ⁓ you know, like.

sometimes I'm also just thinking if you already know, right, then there's nothing to know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you know, the cups are already full, so there's no space to put anything in there.

David J Bauman (17:16)
There's nothing new to find. Maybe that was the...

There you go.

I love the way you think. It frees yourself from agonizing over it. Well, so you are going to read a poem.

Saddiq Dzukogi (17:29)
Yeah.

David J Bauman (17:32)
Do you want to say anything about the book before you're going to read a segment from it?

Saddiq Dzukogi (17:37)
Yeah, I mean the only thing I'd say I'd love to read the the the excerpt and then  like talk about it, but Yeah, just you like buy the book. You know, I hear it's

David J Bauman (17:46)
Okay.

Yes.

I love that unabashedly by the book and I will put I will put links in the show notes for people to be able to click on and do that

Saddiq Dzukogi (17:55)
Yeah, yeah,

Also, like, such a good line, you're like, buy the book, I hear it's good.

So you want a excerpt?

David J Bauman (18:04)
Yeah, sure.

Saddiq Dzukogi (18:06)
Yeah, I'm going to read the first thing.

in the book. So from book one, Bayajidda

David J Bauman (18:09)
Okay.

Saddiq Dzukogi (18:13)
Bayajidda 1. 1455 Anhaske, snuggling in the hue of gobaro minaret, winds Lemrik every evening until his voice wanes in the noise of worship, sings of Bayajidda. He gallops away on a camel and then a boat, fleeing the lush bangs of Euphrates, the Levant, leaving behind the city near the ruins of Babylon.

Nuzzling between rivers where a topographer's hands delicately urged municipalities on stones, where poets hume yesterday's history into today's anthems. There is no benevolence in conquest, for his odyssey in a trance Bayajidda snatches the wings of a crane, a bird mother that visits his dream crooning of lands of rugged splendour, with farmers growing rice and vegetables at the heel of a desert.

For that hame, he strips her of the pleasure of flight and swallows the discomfort of a one-way expedition. home forever be lost to your wayfaring, but not your heart. May you hunger for her while she forgets you. She curses in her song of anguish. He reaches Dora, inflamed with homesickness and thirst. They say his turban dangles over his head like needlework woven by the somber fingers of a tempest.

a tumultuous crest, a face half drowned, barely visible.

David J Bauman (19:47)
I just was so drawn in and it was way past my bedtime in the first reading before I finally went to bed.

I joke sometimes that, well, maybe I'm not a believer because I went to Divinity School. But ⁓ I've always been

Saddiq Dzukogi (20:01)
What?

Instead of putting God in you, they took it out?

David J Bauman (20:07)
⁓ Well, I

just got so into reading lot of other things too ⁓ and realized I was more into the poetry and paradox of the passages than I was into the doctrine of it and whether or not it was Hindu or Muslim, studying a bit of Buddhism and ⁓ learning about Taoism and that kind of thing.

Saddiq Dzukogi (20:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

David J Bauman (20:27)
I think I enjoyed the comparative religion classes more than I did the ones I was supposed to be there for. So eventually I switched to being an English education major and somehow ended up in libraries instead. I guess that's its own epic some of it, of course, is recognizable from that sort of background.

Saddiq Dzukogi (20:29)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Yeah, yeah, look at that.

David J Bauman (20:47)
And some of it's a whole new world that I'm learning and you you're you're kind of blending a lot of different things here as well. Beyond beyond any one faith, I think throughout the entire book. it's it's a fun read, I think, for that reason.

Saddiq Dzukogi (20:53)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, I'd love to read, you know, like also like about other religions and I have been lucky enough, you know, like that my God, you know, like still sticks around in my But it's just, like to remind myself that, you know, like a lot of this, you know, I give them questions of faith and not to get into theology or anything, but it's like.

David J Bauman (21:17)
Nice.

Yeah.

Saddiq Dzukogi (21:29)
all a matter of perspective, right? Because I read and I see similarities in some ways. But in this book actually, it's a critique of Islam and in the ways that it came to Northern Nigeria, it's by way of conquest.

David J Bauman (21:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

the Christians went

the same direction with the Crusades and various other things.

Saddiq Dzukogi (21:47)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, each time you

allow God to be a weapon in the hands of man, I mean, yeah, it's going to be disastrous, to say the least. And you're like, my belief has always been some of the things that we have constructed for God, know, like the ways that we try to fight for God, you know, like

David J Bauman (21:56)
Well said.

Yeah.

Saddiq Dzukogi (22:17)
My charge always is like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, yeah, that's, that's actually blasphemous, you know, because like, who are you to fight for divinity? know, yeah, I'm like, yeah, he, you know, God, God would be all right. You know, God is all right. You know, you are probably not right. If you know, if you think, you know, like you can mount a defense, you know, for God, you know, because like, I mean, that's a limitation. That's a constraint.

David J Bauman (22:18)
like he needs like he needs us to do that. ⁓

Yeah, he's got pretty big shoulders himself, right?

Ha ha ha

Well said.

Saddiq Dzukogi (22:45)
strained,

it's

us, you know, like we have, you know, like an enormous capacity to corrupt. Right. And so, know, got, know, like I do, I try not to get into that, but I also privilege questioning. And in a lot of ways, you know, like questions are often seen as adversarial to.

faith and I'm like yeah well that's like that's the that's probably one of the most profound journey of faith that I can undertake you know because like it's question that is seeking understanding as opposed to you know like anything else you know like if I am asking question I'm wanting to know right and wanting to know in of itself it's a journey

David J Bauman (23:07)
Yes.

Yeah.

Saddiq Dzukogi (23:34)
And so I'm always happy with asking questions, even if there are no answers, because I feel like that's it's half of the journey completed. Right. And if I know to ask the right questions, chances are that, know, like I'm going to stumble on the answers, you know, like maybe not when I want. But, know, like eventually, because the answer is the destination and the question is the it's the road right to the destination.

David J Bauman (23:52)
Mm-hmm.

And I wonder sometimes if there's a there's definitely a parallel in art, I think, when we're talking about writing a poem, a question that keeps coming up throughout this season of the podcast has to do with how much do you know at the beginning of the poem? Do you have?

Do you have in sight where it's heading the way, because I know a lot of, especially fiction writers will, they'll have the ending in mind. But very often I've noticed a lot of poets just start with, like you said, a question. And like, wonder what that might be. And they just, the poem may build on those questions or going through the journey. And then part of finding the ending may not be like, I have all the answers now, but ⁓ I know enough to know that that was a darn interesting question.

Saddiq Dzukogi (24:31)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

David J Bauman (24:47)
You know, I can stop there for now.

Saddiq Dzukogi (24:47)
yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for me, I just, you try to follow the the the treads and you know, like see what branches, you know, like would spring. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, like whatever reveals itself to me, I got I always want to just go, you know, like in that room and just have a look, you know, like.

David J Bauman (24:59)
See, and that's part of the fun. That's the most fun of the whole thing.

Saddiq Dzukogi (25:13)
What's in there? Is it something that interests me? a lot of times it doesn't. And I step out of the room and I'm like, there's another room. And I'm like, ⁓ yeah. So I'm like, yeah, well, there's something here to figure out. I'm going to pick it up and turn it upside down. And what does it evoke in me? What does it tell me? What does it want me to know?

David J Bauman (25:19)
You

⁓ I love your outlook, Saddiq. I love it.

Saddiq Dzukogi (25:40)
I try to go in there unassuming. I do not have the answers because I'm really trying to understand not just myself, but the things around me, the people around me, and how even the self affects the other things. Even if it's an inanimate object, right?

Because there's a relationship there, you know, and what does that say? What does that relationship say about me and even about us as humans?

maybe, you know, it's the way of the teaching because like I am thinking about my own students. And one of the things that I love to do is like just to help them discover the pleasure, you know, like of writing.

David J Bauman (26:23)
Yeah.

Saddiq Dzukogi (26:23)
that it can be enjoyable. It's not life and death, you know, like it's just a freaking poem. And one of the things I love to do is like, know, trying to teach observation. And I have this assignment that I absolutely love, which is three things. First, it's ⁓ just like a...

David J Bauman (26:28)
Right.

Saddiq Dzukogi (26:43)
a mundane observation from your life, you know, like what, what thing have you seen that interests you? And so just you like describe that in, in a line or a sentence, you know, like, or in a phrase. And then another thing is like, what's one random memory that you have and what's one word.

or one question that you have. And all I'm trying to do is like, you know, to teach them to pay attention, to reflect on, you know, like their observation, the things that they've seen. But there's an assignment where I do not tell them why, you know, like I just, you know, like they have to do it every, every week, you know, like, and I'd randomly ask them, you like, I'm like, what are your observations? What are your questions? What, what's the one word? What's the one memory? And I never say anything.

David J Bauman (27:09)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (27:32)
I just want them, because I'm thinking it's a journey that I want to set them on that journey, but I want the discovery to be deeply personal. I want them to discover that for themselves, as opposed to me telling them. Because we resist things. Even the things that good for us. If I tell you, eat healthy, drink water. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David J Bauman (27:33)
Ha

Yeah, I love that.

Mm-hmm.

Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. have to...

Saddiq Dzukogi (28:01)
You're just not gonna do it, know, where we rebel, you know, like, so.

David J Bauman (28:05)
So if you ever had any feedback that somebody says, you know, I was thinking about that one word and that question and ended up writing a poem about this.

Saddiq Dzukogi (28:13)
Yeah, yeah,

I've had, know, like, and I still wouldn't tell them, but I'm like, yeah, that's the goal, right? Because like, you're actively moving around the world and constructing prompts for yourself, right? You know, like, and all of those are supposed to, you know, be a seed, you know, like for a poem.

David J Bauman (28:30)
Mm-hmm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (28:30)
But I want that discovery to come from them and I never say anything, but I mean, that's the goal for me. I'm trying to get them to write and also like I'm trying to get them to remove some of the obstacles that they throw in their own way. You know, like because I absolutely believe, you know, like there's always something to write about. There's always a story waiting for us to pick it up, you know, like on the street every single day, every single time. It's just are you able to see it? Right. And

David J Bauman (28:48)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (29:00)
If you see it, are you able to draw a relationship to that thing that is unfolding outside of your body and what's happening inside of your body? So what reflections do you have about the things that you're seeing? Does it remind you of anything? Is there a connection to a moment in your own life that you can draw a relationship and map the contours of that to touch the other observation that is happening?

outside of your body because I believe you're like there's always connections right ⁓ the question is are you able to see it

David J Bauman (29:30)
Right.

That's fantastic. And I love the, when you say about connections, because it's part of why I like doing this thing where I'm like, hey, I'm gonna read a poem of yours. ⁓ Why don't you read one? And you start seeing connections in the middle of the chat that we have that maybe I didn't see when we started, ⁓ especially even when we get to somebody else's poem ⁓ at the end, because we all kind of, we're influenced.

Saddiq Dzukogi (29:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

David J Bauman (29:58)
if we're paying attention, not just by what's around us maybe, but what some of our ancestors or contemporaries have done. that's part of the fun too.

Saddiq Dzukogi (30:04)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

David J Bauman (30:08)
I want to say it was Stravinsky who was talking about taking a

he would sometimes take like just take a whole section of somebody's of somebody's music and recreate it, but then do something so different with it. And he he had a phrase that I heard an interview where he said, he said, but I steal because I love I love that. I love the music. And that's why I love the and I just have to sing it. I have to play it. And

Saddiq Dzukogi (30:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

David J Bauman (30:35)
maybe we do that more than we realize.

Saddiq Dzukogi (30:37)
I think a lot of people just do not have the I don't know, like the generosity to admit that. mean, it's not even stealing. You go around and you're absorbing things, right? know, people saying things and you're taking that in.

language, you know, from the books that you're reading, from the music, you know, that you're listening to, from the scene that you're observing, you know, from the people in your life, you know, like they might not be writers, you know, like, but how many times have we heard, you know, like from our loved ones, you know, like say something. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, you're like, you know, like, know, I'm listening for that. Right. Because like the one thing about being a poet is like you're also like training your ears to hear the sound.

David J Bauman (31:13)
This better not end up in your book.

Saddiq Dzukogi (31:23)
the music of day-to-day speech and you're like there have been like a lot of times where somebody say something in a coffee house you know like they're not point I'm like oh wow that's like extremely poetic you know like that's a miracle yeah you know like and we don't even give credit you know it's good too right but yeah it's it's

David J Bauman (31:35)
That's good. Let me write that down.

but there's the shared experience

of.

Saddiq Dzukogi (31:46)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah, because we're having a conversation, know, like we're all developing this language, you know, like we're expanding the bounds of the language. And the thing that a lot of people call originality is like overrated. There's nothing that is original, actually. Yeah, yeah, because like, mean, and yeah, I agree. There has to be a point of departure, right, because like

David J Bauman (31:53)
Yes.

Yeah.

Saddiq Dzukogi (32:11)
But we're all learning from each other, We're all growing this language, you know, like, and reaching it, you know, like bringing in our perspective, our own personal truth, complicating it with our own day-to-day experiences. That's the only distinction, right? But the language already exists, right? It's already there, right? It's, it's, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David J Bauman (32:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

And how can you not take from it when we're experimenting with it every day?

Saddiq Dzukogi (32:38)
Yeah, we're in conversation. And we've been in conversation for a very long time, particularly in my book also. Bakandamiya was popularized by Maman Shata, who was a griot in northern Nigeria. And this is an ongoing conversation, engaging with that indigenous poetic tradition in Hausa Land.

So you're like, yeah, I'm taking but you're like, I'm also paying homage, right? ⁓ This is yeah, this yeah, I'm changing it. I'm you know, like subverted it, you know, I'm complicating it and Reaching it with my own wisdom my own insight And I yeah the hubris of a poet you know, like my own wisdom

David J Bauman (33:03)
Yeah, that's it.

with my own wisdom. ⁓ I freaking love it. I love it. Well,

I'll tell you, you I would definitely be bragging if I had such a wonderful blurb on the back of my book by Ilya Kaminsky. So we'll repeat your phrase, buy the book, Ilya Kaminsky says, so we didn't get his permission to say that, but that's okay. I don't think.

Saddiq Dzukogi (33:34)
You

David J Bauman (33:39)
there'll be any problem with that. And again, I'll put those links in the show notes or if you're one that watches us on YouTube, you know, I apologize, but they'll be in that too.

Saddiq Dzukogi (33:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'll tell you

what he said. He put it in the blog. He's like, this voice is worth listening to. And I agree, you should listen to me. ⁓ you

David J Bauman (33:56)
Yes. There you could use that line with your students too. I'll tell you what, this is what Ilya Kaminsky said. You got to listen to me.

That's fantastic. I love it. So speaking of the conversation, what more do you want to say about the book before we move on to there's a poem by somebody else that you're going to share with us.

Saddiq Dzukogi (34:17)
Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I get a book that you're like, frightened and excited being, you know, like at the same time. And a book that was relieved that I was able to write because of a very long time I was thinking about it, you know, making notes, but I quite couldn't figure out, you know, like the form, you know, like, oh, what I do with the with the language.

ones that were percolating in my mind. And eventually, you know, I thought there was like a gap in skill, right? And I did like a lot of reading, read a lot of Derek Walcott's Omeros, T.S. Eliot's Four Quartet, Four Quartets, Khalil Gibran's The Prophet.

David J Bauman (34:59)
yeah, that's another great epic that...

Mm-hmm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (35:07)
And yeah, I didn't read this one. I had to listen to it, but I listened to Beowulf. Yeah. And so sometimes you're like, it's good to identify, you know, like some of the gaps that you have, you know, like, but that shouldn't come in the way of your own poetic vision, right? Because like, if you're able to identify that, then what are you going to do, right? Which is, you know, to bridge that gap so that you're able to tell the story, to write a poem that, you know, like you're wanting to write.

David J Bauman (35:13)
There you go.

One of the things I really I noticed too is that some of your past experience though does come into it because even though it changes in the way it's presented, you have a love and a gift for the rhythm that gets created in these ⁓ couplets or two line stanzas that are even in the ring. ⁓ And then the way you use them and expand them,

Saddiq Dzukogi (35:55)
Mm-hmm.

David J Bauman (35:58)
It creates that sort of epic, what was the word I was just using, pace that almost feels, and I mean this in a homage, in a good way, almost feels like it comes out of mythology or scripture. ⁓ is that something that you did intentionally or is that just a favorite way of your constructing stanzas?

Saddiq Dzukogi (36:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, like, yeah. No, no, no. I mean, you know, like, you know, like there are no secrets. You know, like it's just it's just a freaking poem. But.

David J Bauman (36:22)
Give away your secrets.

I love it.

Saddiq Dzukogi (36:31)
Yeah, I think you're right. know, it's scriptural, you know, like aren't all poets prophets? ⁓ But I have been

David J Bauman (36:37)
Yeah.

Well, yeah,

it reminded me of reading from my own tradition. It reminded me of reading from the Psalms.

Saddiq Dzukogi (36:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, because like this is a thing, know, like and I wanted this was quite deliberate, you know, like I wanted this to be a representation of all of my poetic influences, you know, like which caught across, you know, like the Quran, you're like the points that I've been reading, you know, like my own grandmother. And I love to tell them here that I'm the family scribe. So, you know, like, give me all of your lines. You know, I'm going to put it in my own writing.

David J Bauman (37:01)
Yeah.

They're not yours anymore. They're not mine.

Saddiq Dzukogi (37:11)
Because sometimes you're like my kids Yeah, my kids would say

things like extremely smart, know, like And I'd you know, I put it in a poem before my son. He's cooking and he's like looking at me He's starting 12 next next month ⁓ You know, like and they would say things you like incredibly smart, you know, that's you know, innocent you like childlike but it's a poetic moment

David J Bauman (37:24)
Hahaha!

Wow, time flies.

Saddiq Dzukogi (37:38)
And because I am skilled at recognizing poetic moments, I'm like, oh, that needs to be in a poem. And I do that all the time. But in terms of the couplet I have been strictly writing couplets the last six years now. I haven't written anything outside of couplets Yeah, I know. I'm predictable, probably.

David J Bauman (37:45)
Yeah.

Okay.

No, I

Saddiq Dzukogi (38:05)
Probably boring but you know, I just like it right because like the duality that it affords me Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and and I feel like Yeah, and I feel like I've got it in lockdown, know, like I've got this, you know Like I've got couplet, you're like, yeah. Yeah, I really feel like it but it's something I had to you know, like really train myself and And I thought you know, like in the book it would be

David J Bauman (38:09)
I'm heavily into tersets myself, so I get it. You get into your voice and your rhythm.

You

I'm good at this. I'm gonna. Yeah.

Saddiq Dzukogi (38:32)
a good place to showcase the things that I've been doing for the last couple of years, but it's quite intentional because also the constraint, it challenges me to push the language, to have some level of control and intentionality. And so I like that for that singular reason. just visually, the coplet is like, it's beautiful. It's appealing visually.

David J Bauman (38:42)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And that's another theme, I think, that's come up this season about having a form, having a container to pour things into. ⁓ Like you use the word constraint and it gives you a sense of control over things that you might not otherwise ⁓ have. But it also, I think it also can give life to the thing when you realize, that's how it's shaped. And this is how it's gonna go.

Saddiq Dzukogi (39:02)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. I mean, that's basically the only thing that I try to control. But everything else, ⁓ I'm just letting it be there and sitting there and breathe and be its own thing in the world. I'm just like a tailor, making the cool dresses for the poems.

David J Bauman (39:36)
Okay.

Just doing the.

Saddiq Dzukogi (39:40)
Like, no, no,

that's not what you're supposed to wear. I've got this really nice blazes for you. It's called the couplet

David J Bauman (39:45)
There you go.

Just working on the seams there a little bit. So who's the poet that you're going to read for us?

Saddiq Dzukogi (39:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'm gonna read this Nigerian poet, Gbenga Adesina He just, you know, had a book out. It's titled Death Does Not End at the Sea. It's such an incredible book of poems. And I wanted to read the poem Vows. Vows. Here a memory. When my father fell into himself.

David J Bauman (40:09)
Mm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (40:17)
and the waters within him broke their vows She wilted to half of her cup. She wrapped herself in a black shell. She, my mother, crawled to his side, put her ear to his chest, said, if a body is yours, you can hear the needle of silence in its skin. She, my mother, put her mouth to my father's ear, said, I'd call your body, which is mine.

by name, you'd come back to me. How can a body, the whole land of which you once travel with your tongue, close itself to you? When he, my father, closed his eyes and breath, and his body became a bridge he had left behind on a journey, and they wheeled him down the stairs, she, my mother, sprung after him.

sprung after them. She cried out, my name is inside his tongue. I need to get it back.

David J Bauman (41:24)
nice.

Saddiq Dzukogi (41:25)
Yeah, more than nice

David J Bauman (41:27)
God, yeah, that's a,

good stuff.

Saddiq Dzukogi (41:31)
such a good

stuff, know. he's been getting good attention. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. It's, you know, beautiful, beautiful, tender, devistating poem.

David J Bauman (41:34)
And I love the anaphora of she, my mother. It's quite musical language.

So

Well, thank you for being here, Saddiq. Thank you for taking time.

This has been so much fun.

Saddiq Dzukogi (41:53)
thank you so much. It's

great, the thing that you're doing in three poems. It's amazing. It's like a labor of love, being there for the community and sharing words and having beautiful, beautiful conversations. It's always a joy to be in conversation.

David J Bauman (42:01)
I appreciate that.

yeah, it's like just being

able to have I feel so lucky to be able to do this, you know, and it's just it's just fun to be able to share. a little bit and also revel in the the fun of being able to hear the verses out loud in different voices.

Saddiq Dzukogi (42:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. There's a lot of noise in the world, so this is always calming

David J Bauman (42:32)
one of the things I did want to ask you, Was there anything you wanted to say about any projects you're working on now?

Saddiq Dzukogi (42:37)
what I'm up to lately is I've been doing a lot of photography and just trying to find like a connection between that and my writing. I know that there's a connection, you know, like.

Just to formalize that connection, so like I've been writing photo essays. In fact, I just had one published this week. So yeah, I'm doing a couple of those and it's like such, you know, like exciting new form. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David J Bauman (43:00)
yeah.

So it's not just on Instagram. You're going beyond that. was going to say, listeners,

if you want to follow along in this journey, follow Saddiq's Instagram. to.

Saddiq Dzukogi (43:15)
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.

I have like an artist Instagram page where it's not my name, but I'm the one posting my pictures. So yeah, that's been fun because like, that's been fun because it's also like therapeutic. yeah.

David J Bauman (43:25)
I see. I see.

Saddiq Dzukogi (43:32)
Yeah, I had to put a lot of money to buy the cameras, other than that, therapy has been very cheap. Because all I need is just throw my camera in the bag and just take long walks and make art and see beauty.

David J Bauman (43:35)
Of course, optics are not cheap.

Mm-hmm.

Saddiq Dzukogi (43:48)
So it's been fun. So hopefully there will be a lot of future photo essays coming from me.

David J Bauman (43:56)
Fantastic.

I look forward to seeing it, to reading it.

Saddiq Dzukogi (44:00)
Alrighty, well thank you so much David. I really appreciate the time.

David J Bauman (44:02)
Thank you, Saddiq. Thank you.

In Three Poems (44:05)
Follow in three poems, all spelled out, no numbers, on Instagram, Facebook, or Blue Sky. And thank you for sharing the podcast. I appreciate that. Also, thank you for listening. Down in the show notes, you can click on Text the Show if you'd like to send a message. You'll have to leave an email there if you'd like me to contact you back. You can also click Support the Show if you'd like to get access to some upcoming bonus content that we're calling The Fourth Poem.

I'm David J. Bauman and this has been another delightful conversation in three poems. Thanks so much for coming along.