Please pardon any mistakes in this transcript. I've tried to catch them all. 

—David

David J Bauman (00:00)
I'm so jealous that I didn't write that line.

Judith Sornberger (00:04)
just what you mean. That happens to me all the time. Yes.

David (00:08)
Welcome to episode one of In Three Poems. Our guest poet is Judith Sorenberger, and we'll be reading from and talking about her book, Sorority of Stillness, a gallery of women in art, published in 2025 by Shanty Arts, as well as the anthology, Keystone Poetry, Contemporary Poets on Pennsylvania, that's edited by Marjorie Maddox and Jerry Wemple and published by Penn State University Press also this year.

And in upcoming episodes, as a matter of fact, we're going to hear from both Marjorie and Jerry. In fact, we have well over a dozen poets planned for season one, including Mitchell Nobis and Grant Clauser over the next two weeks. So follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Blue Sky for previews of upcoming episodes. You can also visit and follow on inthreepoems.com

In Three Poems is a conversation not just between two poets, but between the poems themselves. Each week, we'll talk with another poet, read some of their work together, and hear them read a poem by a poet whose work they also admire. While we chat about their latest projects, we'll explore how the poems speak to each other. Some poets you'll recognize, others will be new to you.

And some have been widely published while others have yet to publish their first book. It's the poems themselves that matter the most, and I'm hoping they'll speak to you as well. I'm David J. Baumann, your host, and this is episode one of In Three Poems with our guest, Judith Sorenberger.

David J Bauman (01:36)
Welcome to the podcast, Judith, and I'm just thrilled that you're here. I can hardly wait to... Good, I can hardly wait to dig in to some of these poems with you. you've written five full-length books of poetry, six chapbooks, and a memoir in prose.

Judith Sornberger (01:41)
So am I.

Yes.

David J Bauman (01:54)
And your

recent book is Sorority of Stillness, a gallery of women in art. That was published by Shanty Arts this year, 2025. And we're gonna get to hear you read a poem from that new book And I just got to hear you very recently in September at the Priestley Chapel, historic Priestley Chapel in Northumberland, Pennsylvania. And one of the poems that you read there was Prayer Flags.

Judith Sornberger (02:03)
Yes.

you

David J Bauman (02:21)
And I'd be honored if I could read that poem aloud and chat with you a little bit about it before we dig in. Okay. And of course, we're going to have a little bit of background, but I think in this modern day, ⁓ animals are quite welcome in recordings. It's become the norm.

Judith Sornberger (02:27)
Light me.

Yeah,

David J Bauman (02:38)
So I hope that doesn't bother anyone.

Judith Sornberger (02:38)
absolutely. Me neither.

David J Bauman (02:42)
Prayer Flags, was published, by the way, in the Keystone Poetry Anthology, Contemporary Poets on Pennsylvania, edited by Marjorie Maddox and Jerry Wemple. We can talk a little bit about that as well. Prayer Flags. I see now why each line of wash in a backyard makes me want to drop down on my knees, that I'm witnessing.

the prayer of t-shirts, blue jeans, sheets, and underwear. The prayer flapping below terracotta rooftops in Sienna, repeated in the same tongue right here in Tioga County, Pennsylvania. Don't tell me those women don't know they are praying. Have you ever watched a busy woman hanging out the Holy Ghost of her family? Seen her stand there afterwards, her empty basket,

resting like a child on her cocked hip as she adored the spirit of the wind tossing them into the deep blue mind of heaven. Even a grieving woman feels her feet lift from the earth when the breeze kicks up the ankles of her drying khakis, feels her shoulders sprouting wings as her blouse takes flight. I don't know if she's grateful as she clips each garment to her line or if each one bodies forth

a precious worry. Maybe her clothesline is one long whale. But watch her hours later when she goes to bring her wash in, leaning into the warm scent of the sun, woven with birdsong, closing her eyes for just a second as she guesses, this must be how God smells. Pulling each piece into an embrace of folding, settling in her basket and giving the whole stack a final pat.

Judith Sornberger (04:41)
you

David J Bauman (04:44)
my God, Judith, I was just so in love with this. I was reading this multiple times. you have so many masterful, memorable lines,

David J Bauman (04:55)
I, for instance, that ⁓ the same repeated tongue here in Pennsylvania as other places, I think this will come out in a poem that you'll read a little bit later in that instance, it might be art is a universal language, but here it's laundry becomes a universal language, the flapping of sheets. What made you think of laundry as prayer flags. Where did that come from?

Judith Sornberger (05:22)
Well, know, I was watching a PBS documentary about the Tibetan monks who were refugees from their home in Tibet. And it showed the place where they had set up camp. And there were all these ⁓ prayer flags

David J Bauman (05:31)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Judith Sornberger (05:47)
around their camp, around their settlement. And I was so moved by that. And then really just the next week or so, I was driving someplace and I saw somebody's wash hung up on a line. And I thought, oh my God, it's the same thing. These are prayers.

David J Bauman (06:14)
great connection.

Judith Sornberger (06:16)
Yeah.

David J Bauman (06:17)
but now it's t-shirts and underwear and sheets.

Judith Sornberger (06:20)
Yeah,

that's right.

David J Bauman (06:23)
But it's such a beautiful idea that the spiritual being tied into the everyday. I honestly am not ⁓ the praying man that I once was, but I don't think that that means there isn't a spiritual aspect in finding, and sometimes I do, think, turn to some of the old habits of prayer, it's funny because then I'll talk to myself and say, well,

Judith Sornberger (06:28)
Yes.

Absolutely not.

David J Bauman (06:48)
I don't know who you're talking to because you really aren't a believer in this anymore. And then I kind of argue with myself back and say, well, yeah, but it's a habit that I'm used to and it calms me down. It grinds you into something real. I think just maybe the same way that the laundry does, or I think the laundry also in this case seems to be helping the, I guess not speaker, but the observed person.

Judith Sornberger (06:53)
Thanks.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yes. Yes.

David J Bauman (07:17)
not just be grounded, sort of this take flight, this growing wings out of the back.

Judith Sornberger (07:22)
Yeah, yeah, take flight, yes.

David J Bauman (07:26)
And even a busy woman in this line hanging out the Holy Ghosts of her family. Wow, you do so much in just a few words there, Judith. ⁓ Now, you've taught in many places, including the Women's Study Program at the University of Colorado Boulder.

And you actually created the woman's study program at the Mansfield University of Pennsylvania campus where you also teach creative writing and are currently professor emerita. Is that right? Yes. So when I think of that image, a grieving woman feeling her feet lift off as she sees the ankles of her khakis rise in the breeze. never.

Judith Sornberger (08:00)
Yes. Yes.

David J Bauman (08:13)
I'm so jealous that I didn't write that line.

Judith Sornberger (08:17)
just what you mean. That happens to me all the

time. Yes.

David J Bauman (08:22)
Yeah,

so there's maybe a spiritual grounding in the everyday here, but there's also ⁓ a spiritual escape or a spiritual empowerment, perhaps?

Judith Sornberger (08:27)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

David J Bauman (08:35)
Yeah, and we often think of the weight of grief, you know, how this heavy, like a boulder that you're carrying. And here, the grief is something that causes someone to sprout wings when they see their blouse going. That's an amazing thought. And I love the using ⁓ body as a verb, how... ⁓

Judith Sornberger (08:40)
⁓ yes.

Yes.

Hahaha!

David J Bauman (09:02)
how it bodies forth, how is that lined? ⁓

Judith Sornberger (09:07)
Bodies forth of a precious, I don't have it in front of me, but yeah. Yeah. Bodies forth. That's it.

David J Bauman (09:11)
Yeah, the clips each garment to her line, or if each one bodies forth a precious worry. So there's a letting go,

a release going on here of the grief. So maybe it's a way of ⁓ finding release as well as finding grounding in the poem. And you show it so beautifully. Did you know where this poem? See, usually when I write, I don't know where the poem's going.

Judith Sornberger (09:21)
Mm-mm.

Yes, absolutely.

Yep. Yep.

David J Bauman (09:39)
when I start. I have an idea

or like you had an image or maybe a line but it's like okay this wants to do something where does it want to go and I try to follow it so you didn't you did you have any idea where this might lead to?

Judith Sornberger (09:53)
Absolutely

not. And that's one of the gifts of poetry, isn't it, David? Yes. Yeah.

David J Bauman (09:58)
It certainly is. it is. Now let's

talk about ⁓ the Keystone Poetry Anthology for just a second. By the time people hear this, I will have already interviewed Jerry Wimple, who is one of the two editors, and I'll be talking to our friend Marjorie Maddox in the future. And you're going to be reading one of her poems in just a little bit too from that anthology.

Judith Sornberger (10:15)
Yes.

Absolutely, yeah.

David J Bauman (10:22)
It's been a neat thing to be a part of. I guess this is the 25th anniversary edition, isn't it? The effort for them to go around and get poets from every single quadrant, not just corner. ⁓

Judith Sornberger (10:31)
Yes. Yes.

It's just an amazing,

it's just an amazing feat. Yes.

David J Bauman (10:42)
Yeah,

and being able to be a part of at least one of the readings was quite amazing as well. Some wonderful poets, Ross Gay, you. Yeah. But poems about Pittsburgh as well as poems about here in the farmlands and Ridge and Valley region where I live and you up there in the.

Judith Sornberger (10:46)
yeah.

Of course, of course.

Yeah.

David J Bauman (11:11)
the highlands of Pennsylvania up there in the plateau region. I think you in your bio saying that living on the side of a mountain. Near Wellsboro. And we talked about birds. ⁓ you read a beautiful poem about a hawk. I want people to look up some of your poetry before we read the next piece.

Judith Sornberger (11:13)
Yeah, the Highlands, yes.

Yes, it's a great privilege.

⁓ Yeah.

David J Bauman (11:37)
Do you want to tell people real quick where they can look to find your newest book?

Judith Sornberger (11:42)
⁓ Sorority of Stillness is from Shanti Arts. And you can find it actually on the Shanti Arts website and also on the Evil Empire of... Yeah, Amazon.

David J Bauman (11:52)
Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's,

yeah, and we have to do, it is helpful to do those reviews. I'm not so sure how helpful the Goodreads reviews are anymore, but I still like them. But ⁓ yeah, those Amazon reviews supposedly do help with sales, ⁓ yeah, yeah. I guess we shouldn't say too much. We don't want anybody's legal team after us. ⁓

Judith Sornberger (12:05)
Yes.

I know, me too!

Yeah.

Absolutely not.

David J Bauman (12:25)
but the Hawk poem came from a different book. what was the title of that book?

Judith Sornberger (12:28)
I call to you from Time

David J Bauman (12:30)
Yeah, wonderful, wonderful poems, all of them. Now this one is from the new book And do you want to say anything about this whole collection? And I always say the word wrong, so I hope I say it right this time. Ekphrastic poetry. I was never sure. But then you hear ekphrases.

Judith Sornberger (12:32)
It's from Wiffenstock, yes.

Absolutely, yeah. Bravo!

David J Bauman (12:53)
So I suppose it depends on how you're using the word, how you pronounce it. But I'm glad to see that that's kind of grown in maybe not popularity, but just a lot more people have experimented with it and that's part of what this project is, seeing how different arts communicate, in this case mostly poetry, how one poem speaks to another, or different poets influence each other. And so this is based on a weaving, based on a painting.

Judith Sornberger (12:56)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

David J Bauman (13:20)
of a weaving or a mural from ⁓

Judith Sornberger (13:22)
Yeah, beer.

Sorority of Stillness. it's as, okay, thank you. And as David said, it is from a mural by Diego Rivera.

David J Bauman (13:27)
And we'll put links to that too.

Judith Sornberger (13:37)
So I want to believe nothing is lost, not a leaf or syllable, not a snip of thread or needle, that the cobalt blue cabinet holds everything that's passed beyond our vision, that the kneeling woman before it weaves the white hair of the dead, sinews of April skies.

ebony of falling feathers and red streamers of sunsets into a fresh pattern, ancient as the mind of God. I want to see the lapis waves of her skirt as the sea we all began in, to believe the braid down her back holds codes for streams and paths, languages and equations.

that the fabric rolled in her lap is the map of a new beginning.

David J Bauman (14:43)
once again, for those who ⁓ maybe just joined while you were listening, the name of the book is, or while you were reading, the name of the book is...

Judith Sornberger (14:50)
⁓ It's

Sorority of Stillness, a gallery of women in art.

David J Bauman (14:56)
and this mural by Diego Ramirez. What? I did some looking into this and he did a lot of, I guess almost Cubist as he was actually highly caught up in that before he started doing this more sort of figurative art ⁓ back home in Mexico. And in this poem, I don't know if you,

created this mythology yourself or it's something that you dug into but I love it because it's such a real image and it's actually a real weaver with that was it a backstrap loom?

Judith Sornberger (15:29)
Yeah,

Yes, yes, a backstrap loom, absolutely, yes.

David J Bauman (15:34)
Luz Jimenez is the name of the woman in the image and you create this almost mythology of origin that is just amazing. What made you think of this?

Judith Sornberger (15:45)
Well, ⁓ boy. ⁓ When I, yeah, when I saw the mural, I was so, first of all, I need to say that my first love was Frida Kahlo, his wife. And I've written some poems about her poems as well. But when I saw this painting, I know that both he and Frida Kahlo were very caught up in,

David J Bauman (15:47)
Hahaha!

Okay, yes. Thanks for pointing that out.

Judith Sornberger (16:14)
embracing the culture of the native people of Mexico. And when I saw this, I felt like this mural, I felt not only like it was a tribute to the native

David J Bauman (16:21)
Mm-hmm.

Judith Sornberger (16:42)
people of the land, but also a very spiritual embrace of...

David J Bauman (16:49)
Mmm.

Judith Sornberger (16:50)
creativity and spirituality.

in general, one that we all can belong to.

David J Bauman (16:55)
Yeah, and you've got that.

No, go ahead.

Yeah, it definitely speaks it speaks across.

distances and it speaks across cultures, I guess is the word I'm looking for. Yeah. And the way that the white hair of the dead is married in that image to the sinews of April skies. And when you say sinews of April skies, I'm thinking of being up there on the lookout at this time of the year when I'm watching for hawks flying south. I know those long sinewy white clouds.

Judith Sornberger (17:07)
That's how I felt about it, yes.

Yeah...

Yeah...

David J Bauman (17:28)
But you've got this this tying of the white hair of the dead ⁓ to the April skies. So you've got an April being spring where it's usually symbolic of life And so you have that weaving of life and death all into the same fabric That is just gorgeous and this This whole lapis waves of her skirt being the primordial ocean like where we where we all came from it's just it's just a marvelous

Judith Sornberger (17:41)
Yeah.

David J Bauman (17:55)
beautiful piece. you read it beautifully, but you made me fall in love with the image. But I think this stands on its own without anyone seeing the image. It just kind of makes you long to go look it up now. ⁓ I think.

Judith Sornberger (17:58)
Hmm.

I've got

to tell you that that means a lot to me because one of the, you know, one of the, what, yeah, yeah, challenges and questions one has about writing ekphrastic poetry is whether the poem can survive without the image. And of course, in sorority of stillness, many of the poems are accompanied by the images. And yet many of the poems, in my and other

David J Bauman (18:14)
challenges maybe.

Yeah.

Judith Sornberger (18:35)
ekphrastic poet's work are not accompanied by the images. And all we can hope is that our poems body forth the image as well as going beyond it. There I go again, yeah. Oh, there you go. There you go.

David J Bauman (18:47)
Yes. I'm going to be using that phrase all year. I like bodies forth. I'm going to use that in a wine tasting somehow at some point.

But I also get like an image of the DNA helix in the braids of her hair. I don't know if that's intentional. Don't you? And I think it's funny that

Judith Sornberger (19:08)
⁓ yeah, ooh I love that the DNA helix yes! Now I

wish that were in the poem!

David J Bauman (19:17)
But no,

but you have the image there. It's so funny, I had a, I mentioned something one time in a workshop ⁓ because someone pointed out something in one of my poems that I didn't know was there and I said, I didn't know that was there. And the workshop leader Dr. Penelope Austin, who has since passed away years back. she just turned to me deadpan.

Judith Sornberger (19:26)
Thank

David J Bauman (19:39)
And said, David, you'll learn to say, ⁓ I'm glad you noticed that.

Judith Sornberger (19:46)
Great.

That is great.

David J Bauman (19:48)
you have that final pat of the laundry, there's something comforting about that in prayer flags. And here you have this, though you've got the mix of the white hairs of the dead and origins and kind of these, all this kind of primordial epic stuff going on.

Judith Sornberger (19:51)
you

David J Bauman (20:05)
out of a basic day-to-day weaving image of doing artisan work, beautiful work, but also hard work. And you have that little glimmer of hope at the end with a map of a new beginning. Really, really a joy to read.

Judith Sornberger (20:11)
Yes.

David J Bauman (20:21)
you, in the Keystone Anthology, you wanted to read a poem by one of the editors, Marjorie Maddox, and we thank her for her permission on reading it. What drew you to this poem? It's called Throwing Like a Girl. It is.

Judith Sornberger (20:26)
Thank you.

Well.

It's an amazing poem. Number

one, I mean, just listen to that title, Throwing Like a Girl. We know that that is supposed to be a put down, right? And yet this poem is a complete reversal of that, right? Also, I will say that women of my generation were raised reading narratives primarily

David J Bauman (20:51)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm.

Judith Sornberger (21:11)
by men in which we were, in order to deeply enter the story, we had to imagine ourselves as the protagonist who was generally a male. And one of the things that drew me so much to this poem was that delightfully so, these young boys, ⁓

David J Bauman (21:22)
Hmm

Judith Sornberger (21:36)
were doing the opposite. They were imagining themselves as a girl. And it's just so delightful.

David J Bauman (21:38)
Yeah.

It makes me think of some of the cosplay, if you're familiar with that term, when they have some of these conventions where kids are dressing up as superheroes. And by kids, I actually mean people in their 20s and 30s, even close to my age. Yeah. Whether they're anime characters or fairy tale characters or superheroes. And

Judith Sornberger (21:59)
Yeah, they're kids to us, aren't they? Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

David J Bauman (22:08)
It's not as uncommon as it used to be to see a boy decide to dress up as, Storm from... Yeah, yeah, I love it. Because it's... And in a way, for me too, it's beautiful when I see representation of male characters that are gay. That it's not just a story where...

Judith Sornberger (22:16)
⁓ Can I tell you how much I love that? Yeah.

David J Bauman (22:38)
that character has to die. That seemed quite the thing for a while.

as important as many of the books that I've read and many of the different movies that I've seen with that kind of representation, it's also just cool to see, like you said, someone who they just happen to be a woman or they just happen to be gay and that's not what the story is all about, you know, and you get to take part in that as the protagonist and I guess I should stop talking about the poem and let you read it.

Judith Sornberger (23:01)
There you go. That's right.

Okay, here it goes. This is Throwing Like a Girl by Marjorie Maddox. From Williamsport, Pennsylvania, Mo'net Davis, pitcher for Philadelphia's Taney Dragons, who represented the Mid-Atlantic team as the 2014 Little League World Series pitcher, Williamsport, Pennsylvania. That's her epigraph.

70 miles, Mo'net style. Fastball, curveball, flashing into the future ball. Every which way but losing. Batters up, so we chant Mo'net, Mo'net. Awake, sleeping, warming up for the life worth stealing in this home run of a series we call team. We call you go girl. Braided phenom with an arm that hurls hope.

way past today's whirl of photo ops and change ups, all the way to a close up of two t-ball boys playing the part, debating, voices escalating, I'm Mo'net, no, I'm Mo'net, and a summer of daughters leaning into the pitch that blasts the phrase, throwing like a girl into the all-star compliment.

that it can be, that it is. When lean machine Mo'net takes the mound, smiles as wide as a long drive, then delivers the dream we braided girls of baseball, basketball, soccer, business, science, writing, still need in whatever and every season.

David J Bauman (25:08)
Fantastic. I love it. And I love that there's this future, that this isn't just, it's not just a moment. With that line from Hamilton, it's not a moment, it's a movement. because it's flashing into the future that hurls hope way past today's world of photo ops and change ups. Good stuff.

Judith Sornberger (25:19)
There you go,

Yeah, very good stuff.

David J Bauman (25:31)
Well done Marjorie Maddox

and beautiful reading of it as well. I love it. So what else, what projects are you working on at this point Judith that you want to talk about or?

Judith Sornberger (25:35)
Thank you.

Well, it's funny because I'm actually working on something very different from anything I've ever done before. I just finished a first draft of a kid's book. a middle grade reader about a an American chestnut tree in the Appalachians of northern Pennsylvania, who eventually becomes a wooden doll.

David J Bauman (25:53)
Mmm.

Okay.

Judith Sornberger (26:10)
And sounds kind of weird, but I'm 73. And one of the things that I have found myself doing is wanting to write all kinds of different things. know, a year before last, I wrote a one act play.

David J Bauman (26:38)
Mm.

Judith Sornberger (26:39)
that

was produced here in Mansfield or in Wellsboro. And I've done some journal in depth journalistic writing. And I just feel like more and more I want to I want to explore all different kinds of genres. And, you know, life is short. Writing is eternal.

David J Bauman (26:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yes, Well said. ⁓ gosh, that, I guess, that would be one of the things that would be the great reward that might not be around to see, but to have somebody read our words years from now after we're gone. And it still means, yeah, and it still means something Well, thank you, Judith. Now, I forgot to ask you ahead of time.

Judith Sornberger (27:04)
Yeah.

Let's hope that happens, yes, right?

Yeah.

David J Bauman (27:26)
give a website that people can look at

Judith Sornberger (27:27)
Yes,

it's not quite up to date, it's www.judithsornberger.net.

David J Bauman (27:31)
Hahaha

And that would be the place to go to catch up at least on some of your writing and I'm sure it'll be updated eventually. And hopefully we're gonna have some really wonderful children's stories in there as well. Well, thank you so much for being with me today and chatting with me about this. I appreciate you being here. It's been a joy and you have a

Judith Sornberger (27:43)
Yeah. Eventually, yes.

So...

David, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much.

David J Bauman (28:03)
wonderful evening and we'll talk to you again soon I'm sure.

David (28:08)
Thanks for tuning in. That's a wrap for episode one. Please listen in next time as we talk with poet and educator Mitchell Nobis. As we read from his new book published in 2025 by Match Factory Editions, it's called The Size of the Horizon, or I Explained Everything to the Trees. More episodes with today's poets coming all throughout this winter here on N3 Poems. You can listen in on your favorite podcast app or at n3poems.com.

And as we work to tidy up our audio and technical performance here, you'll soon be able to tune in on the In Three Poems channel on YouTube, if that's your thing. Thanks again for joining us for a conversation in three poems.